Maju is hoping that the Swat culture will validate his faith in Kurganism and, to be honest, I actually wish it was true.
If that culture was in fact intrusive, and if it did derive from the BMAC, and if indeed those people brought an Indo-European language through the Khyber pass, then I should be thrilled. Among other things, it would offer a credible explanation for proto-Tocharian, one in better agreement with modern archeology. But that is a lot of "ifs".
What we know from the archaeological record is that, if anyone invaded anyone, it was the Harappans 'invading' the BMAC, when some centuries before Swat they established a trading colony at Shortugai, on the Amu Darya. From then on, the two were presumably in contact and foreign trade or cultural influence along an apparent trade route should not surprise us. After the Harappan collapse, sites peripheral to the Indus homeland seem to have generally went their separate ways as the influence of the centralized culture waned. We should therefore rather expect Gandhara to be drawn toward the Afghan sphere and if someone wishes to call that an, "Indo-Aryan Invasion", then I might not even object too strenuously.
But that still leaves the question of what language, or indeed languages, the BMAC spoke. There is no clear answer to that so far and, since they don't appear to have left a written language behind, we may never know. Reports that Bactrian Margiana spoke Indo-Iranian rest upon the claims of V I Sarianidi and those claims do not withstand scrutiny.
Assuming that the BMAC did in fact speak an Indo-European language, at least for the sake of argument, then it is difficult to see how the Kurgan hypothesis can be comfortably sustained. If Bactrian Margiana was Indo-European, then archeology suggests that agricultural tribes in Afghanistan, on the Iranian plateau, in southern Turkmenistan, and in western Tajikistan, may also have spoken Indo-European languages in the late fourth millennium BCE. I don't have a problem with that, since in my ignorance I have no problem with a language riding the Neolithic wave through the oases of Central Asia. But how can this be squared with the claim that proto-Indo-European arose and spread with a horse-and-wheel culture from south-west Russia?
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Talking of Maju. You will no doubt be amused to see he has tipped over the chess board, just when I had him backed into a corner. His last few comments at his Marianas post are very confused as he twisted and turned to try to prove he was correct. Very amusing.
ReplyDeleteAs for this post: I'm agnostic about, but very interested, in Indo-European origins. I actually doubt that the Harrappans spoke any sort of IE language. I think it far more likely they spoke a language related to Elamite.
Yes, I saw that and Maju has even published a list of enemies, this time. Most amusing indeed and not at all unexpected.
ReplyDeleteI agree and he is backed into a corner. I haven't looked at his last responses to me, on that thread, but I don't expect much coherence there, either. I particularly enjoyed him tossing around "mode 4" and "Aurignacian" and the like, as if they were words of power that might keep lesser mortals at bay.
I've so far been too lazy to write something up but it seems that blade technology did enter China from the west or north about 34,000 to 38,000 years ago. Given the elevated levels of Neandertal admixture in the Chinese population, I find this most suggestive. I didn't cite that paper to Maju. I assumed he already knew about it and I was enjoying the prospect of watching him squirm.
Back on topic: Why Elamite?
I was reading a paper by Farmer, et al, "Collapse of the Indus-Script Thesis", where it was suggested that northern India may have been as linguistically diverse under the Harappans as it remains to this day. I find that a compelling suggestion. What, indeed, is the evidence that the Harappans spoke a single language?
I too am keenly interested but ultimately rather agnostic. I don't accept some of the arguments advanced by Kurgan enthusiasts but I'm not going to collapse in apoplectic fits, a la Maju, if it emerges that I was wrong.
One problem, for me, is defining what changed between the Indus Valley Civilization and the rise of Vedic culture. That is a surprisingly difficult question to answer, once you start digging. They had spoked wheels before the collapse, for instance, and may have had fire altars at Kalibangan. That the supposedly characteristic goddess figurines were absent at that site seems a fact, so it's difficult to discern a necessary change in religion.
"Why Elamite?"
ReplyDeleteYears ago I read some paper that claimed to see a connection. And some have claimed a connection between Elamite and Sumerian. I am also rather sceptical of ideas of independent development of intensive agriculture. And accept dialect chains. So I suspect a dialect chain that stretched from Southern Iraq across some of Iran and into northern Inia/Pakistan.
"it was suggested that northern India may have been as linguistically diverse under the Harappans as it remains to this day".
I'm sure it was. But today's linguistic diversity involves just two main language families. In fact Dravidian has been pushed south by Indo-European's expansion. And I suspect Dravidian languages are descended from languages spoken by Harappans. Had to reach conclusions of course. The data is so limited.
"One problem, for me, is defining what changed between the Indus Valley Civilization and the rise of Vedic culture. That is a surprisingly difficult question to answer, once you start digging".
I don't think 'replacement' was much involved except perhaps in the ruling class. And elements of culture would have spread ahead of any advancing 'wave'. So the resulting mixture would be very complicated. I noticed as I've traveled round a few years ago that 'European' culture varied between even Australia and New Zealand. In spite of racist attitudes Aboriginal aspects have influenced Australians and Maori culture has heavily influenced New Zealand's. Possibly Indigenous American cuklture has influence the local Virginian culture.
By the way. I didn't make it to Virginia. Nashville was the nearest I got. But I listen to (and play) fiddle and banjo music from the region.
"I am also rather sceptical of ideas of independent development of intensive agriculture."
DeleteAs am I.
"And accept dialect chains. So I suspect a dialect chain that stretched from Southern Iraq across some of Iran and into northern Inia/Pakistan."
I don't know of any definite ties to southern Iraq. Northern Iraq seems a possibility, though, since there are reportedly cultural similarities between Jarmo, sites in Luristan, and the Jeitun culture of the northern foothills of the Kopet Dag, in Turkmenistan.
The earliest agricultural site in South Asia so far seems to be Mehrgarh. Given its location near the Bolan Pass, and assuming that agriculture was not a local development, one is left looking northwest, to the periphery of the Iranian plateau, for a probable source. The cultural assemblage of Mehrgarh's aceramic phase is comparable to Jeitun, apparently.
"In fact Dravidian has been pushed south by Indo-European's expansion."
Or it was pushed south by the Harappans themselves, since their movement east and south is well-attested in the material record.
"And I suspect Dravidian languages are descended from languages spoken by Harappans."
Asko Parpola has been beating this drum for years, I think. The suggestion dates back to the 1800s, when an Indo-Aryan invasion was first proposed to explain the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization. Of course, we know better these days. Looks like it was the weather that took them down.
"I don't think 'replacement' was much involved except perhaps in the ruling class. And elements of culture would have spread ahead of any advancing 'wave'. So the resulting mixture would be very complicated."
I see no clear signs of replacement at any level and thus my reservations. One of the few cultural elements that might have spread ahead of such a wave was the horse but it appears quite late -- ca 1600 BCE, in Swat -- at a time when horse culture was being adopted throughout the ancient world. The indication of a spoked wheel that I mentioned is actually from a pre-Harappan context. If indeed there are fire altars at Kalibangan, then they date to the Mature Harappan, centuries before the collapse and from an era in which foreign influences are conspicuous in their absence.
"Possibly Indigenous American cuklture has influence the local Virginian culture."
I honestly don't know. There was some contact but western Virginia, where I live, had been depopulated for centuries before Europeans arrived, for reasons that are not entirely understood. One obvious influence, which was not limited to Virginia, was in the area warfare. The guerilla tactics learned from Native Americans during the Seven Years War played a significant role in defeating the British during the Revolution.
"By the way. I didn't make it to Virginia. Nashville was the nearest I got. But I listen to (and play) fiddle and banjo music from the region."
How fine! Tennessee looks much as it does here, only with smaller mountains. Tbe populations are very similar. You play fiddle and banjo? I'm quite fond of Bluegrass music, myself.
"it seems that blade technology did enter China from the west or north about 34,000 to 38,000 years ago. Given the elevated levels of Neandertal admixture in the Chinese population, I find this most suggestive".
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link. It would have made no difference to Maju. He insisted that you claimed movement from China to the west. Probaly because then he could insist you were wrong. And he complains about me putting words into his mouth. Anyway, this sums it up:
"We cannot reconstruct the precise pathway by which blade technology spread across East Asia due to the scarcity of well-dated Paleolithic sites. However, we agree that the large blade technology in the Shuidonggou area probably represents dispersal of cultural elements from North Mongolia and/or the Altai mountain area, where similar blade technologies provide somewhat older dates".
As well as being sceptical of ideas of independent development of intensive agriculture I also believe that migration routes have been used again and again when the times are right. This spread of blade technology into northern China would not be the first time this route had been used. Australian Aborigines did not have even a blade technology when Europeans first reached them. They certainly had no technology that would connect them to South Asia although some see genetic connections. However this connection could well have been from Australia (or nearby) to South Asia as it seems extremely likely that mt-DNA R originated in Wallacea as did most clades within Y-DNA MNOPS. A northern route would also explain the Denisova connection. Later movements, including that covered in the paper you linked to, would have obliterated the pathway between Altai and Australia/New Guinea.
"I particularly enjoyed him tossing around 'mode 4' and 'Aurignacian' and the like, as if they were words of power that might keep lesser mortals at bay".
Words completely irrelevant to discussions of East Asia or Australia.
"He insisted that you claimed movement from China to the west. Probaly because then he could insist you were wrong. And he complains about me putting words into his mouth."
DeleteHa! Nice straw-man argument, there, and seems like logical fallacies are Maju's stock and trade. It's rather sad, when you consider how much time he has devoted to his website. As an aggregator of archaeological and genetic information, he provides a valuable service but his egregious errors and distortions, whether innocent or deliberate, severely limit the utility of his work.
"As well as being sceptical of ideas of independent development of intensive agriculture I also believe that migration routes have been used again and again when the times are right."
I have no doubts, myself. Maju argues against it, of course, but the material record soundly refutes him. Luxury goods were moving along major segments of what were later the western Silk Routes no later than the second half of the fourth millennium BCE. The oasis culture of Central Asia expanded east along the same routes at least as far as Tajikistan around the same time. Sheep, wheat, and quite possibly metalurgy, likely entered China through the Djungar Gate, through which would later pass the northern-most Silk Route. Nomadic tribes entered the region the same way, thus forcing the Han to extend the Great Wall into the Tarim Basin to prevent such incursions. Best I can tell, it had always been a migratory route.
"However this connection could well have been from Australia (or nearby) to South Asia as it seems extremely likely that mt-DNA R originated in Wallacea as did most clades within Y-DNA MNOPS."
So, you're advocating a backflow, from the South Pacific to the mainland?
"So, you're advocating a backflow, from the South Pacific to the mainland?"
ReplyDeleteCertainly to some extent. Certainly mt-DNA P looks to have originated in Australia before some clades were able to reach New Guinea, while branches of one actually went on the reach the Philppines. In fact I've become fairly sure that mt-DNA R originated in Wallacea, as no basal N haplogroups are found there although N must have passed that way on its way to Australia. Y-DNA MNOPS looks very much to have originated very near Wallacea although the ancestors of both NO and P may never have lived quite so far south.
Some mt-DNA M haplogroups also look to have moved from east to west. For example M42 is found in both Australia and India but the Indian members are associated with Munda-speaking groups. Munda has recently been claimed to have come from the east, presumably with the EDAR variant. Two other haplogroups have both Indian and Palawan (Philippines) representatives: M19'53 and M24'41. Of course the direction of movement is uncertain but they too may have been part of the Austro-Asiatic/EDAR movement from the east into India.
The above would mean that most people in the world have ancestors who lived near Wallacea at some time. My guess is that the boating technology required to cross Wallace's Line was sufficient to provide the ability to expand rapidly round the coasts and up rivers. Of course Maju disagrees absolutely with the above. However he did allow me to post these haplogroup distribution maps:
http://ourorigins.wikia.com/wiki/Mt_M_west_to_east
http://ourorigins.wikia.com/wiki/Mt_N_west_to_east
http://ourorigins.wikia.com/wiki/Mt_R_east_to_west
I will add that Maju has no disagreement with the placement of the various haplogroups.
I missed your other comment:
ReplyDelete"I'm quite fond of Bluegrass music, myself".
I play a little bluegrass. Mainly 'old-timey'. Frailing banjo rather than bluegrass. Irish, Scottish and various American styles, including jazz, on fiddle. Also Guitar. In fact I make my living teaching that instrument.
Thanks for the information on Iran and Harappa. You have obviously studied the subject far more than I have.
By the way: have you checked out Maju's comments at his 'moderation' post? I notice you're not banned, so you'll have to work harder.
Thanks so much for the detailed reply and apologies for the delayed response.
Delete"The above would mean that most people in the world have ancestors who lived near Wallacea at some time."
Unexpected.
"My guess is that the boating technology required to cross Wallace's Line was sufficient to provide the ability to expand rapidly round the coasts and up rivers."
Bucky Fuller speculated, somewhat idly, that humans have been circumnavigating the globe for at least 10,000 years. I should not be at all surprised if it emerged that he was correct. As I recall, he favored Thailand as one of the early cradles, since the main harbor -- Laem Chabang? -- exhibited the full sequence of water transport, from dugouts to hydrofoils.
I had never heard the term "frailing banjo" before now but recognize the style, now that I've heard it on YouTube. How came one so musically inclined to take an interest in genetics and anthropology?
My uncles have musical talents like yours. Between the two of them, they played guitar, base, banjo, mandolin, and fiddle, and had a bluegrass band, when I was a child.
"Thanks for the information on Iran and Harappa. You have obviously studied the subject far more than I have."
I have been cramming a lot of information, recently. Have you seen the book, History of Civilizations of Central Asia? I have Volume 1 in PDF. Shoot me an email, if you're interested. My address is on my profile page.
"Bucky Fuller speculated, somewhat idly, that humans have been circumnavigating the globe for at least 10,000 years. I should not be at all surprised if it emerged that he was correct. As I recall, he favored Thailand as one of the early cradles, since the main harbor -- Laem Chabang? -- exhibited the full sequence of water transport, from dugouts to hydrofoils".
ReplyDeleteThailand is a possibility. However I think sea-going transport would develop first in a region where it provided an advantage for populations with it. My first idea was Wallacea (of course) however I have come to realise that much of the South China Sea and even the Yellow Sea would have been land or at least islands during periods of low sea level. The South China Sea does include the Gulf of Thailand so Bucky Fuller may be correct. I'm reasonably sure of SE Asia somewhere. However the Wallacean crossing is far ealier than a mere 10,000 years ago.
"I had never heard the term 'frailing banjo'"
Also called 'clawhammer' 'framming'. It's an early style of banjo playing, probably brought to USA by Africans.
"How came one so musically inclined to take an interest in genetics and anthropology?"
My degree is in agricultural science and I have been involved with practical genetics through my brothers' cattle breeding programs. In spite of what Maju might believe it is a small step from dairy cattle to humans when it comes to population genetics.
"Unexpected".
And unacceptable to Maju. However I think the evidence is mounting. I'll get back to you regarding the Central Asia book. My time is limited at the moment.
@terryt: Thailand is a possibility but I think Bucky was also under the mistaken impression that bronze might have first appeared there as well, since it is one of the few places where tin and copper are found in somewhat close proximity. In reality, looks like bronze arrived there relatively late, possibly as a result of the Seima-Turbino phenomenon.
DeleteFuller didn't know about Afghanistan, where on top of an abundance of copper and tin we also find evidence of ancient mining activity. That fact got Maju worked into quite a lather, since I suppose it diminshed the importance of Iberia in the grand scheme of things.
I agree that relatively long-range navigation began somewhere in the vicinity of SE Asia. What reminded me of Bucky's idea was the dispersal of DNA out of the region.
"My degree is in agricultural science and I have been involved with practical genetics through my brothers' cattle breeding programs. In spite of what Maju might believe it is a small step from dairy cattle to humans when it comes to population genetics."
I see. Thanks. Not sure why Maju would think that such a great leap.
"And unacceptable to Maju."
Andy idea why? I can sometimes see how something or other undermines some part of his world view. Other times, he's inscrutable. I really cannot understand why the southern route is so very important to him.
I had another look at the comments on his moderation/censorship post and got a good laugh. I take it you're a Kiwi, then? And shame on you for not appreciating all the hard work he puts into his propaganda mill! Never have I seen so much throbbing butthurt wrapped in such a frightfully thin skin.
A request, if I may. Would you try to find the ancient meaning of Damagou? Recent articles about it in the Takla Makan, re Buddha texts and Toop Baruch ("big mound" in Uighur, but I suspect toop/tepe/steep + baruch/bless/praise/breathe/please
ReplyDeleteDamagou literally means, "marijuana ditch". It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Uighur phrase.
DeleteThanks, that is unexpected. I thought maybe it related to (fish)hook or dog (kennel), or less likely, Damascus. Seems unlikely.
DeleteYes, entirely different gou.
DeleteI don't know if the character also means hemp (for weaving/rope) in general. Might there be a link to 'gu' fishing net?
Deletedama - marijuana
Deletechongma - hemp seed? - per a reference to Beinan culture of Taiwan
(I meant above, marijuana ditch/damagou might link to hemp-net)
Ma in this case means hemp. Dama -- 大麻, literally, "big hemp" -- means marijuana, the hemp plant itself.
Deletechongma - hemp seed? - per a reference to Beinan culture of Taiwan
You're probably thinking of 種, zhong3, in Pinyin Mandarin romanization, meaning seed or grain. Google offers damazhongzi as a possible translation of "marijuana seeds".
The traditional Chinese character for gou, in Damagou, is the same as a character meaning and depicting a trellis, enlarged by the water radical. Apparently, the original meaning was irrigation ditches, and by extension a ditch generally, a watercourse, an aqueduct, etc.
Thanks. I recall da = big (dawei~big man). By the way, speaking of Bucky Fuller's speculations, I think he was right on the early bronze/tin/copper/ochre locale, but I think it was pottery glaze or very thin surface 'paints', not structural metal (Fuller's hypothesis eg. ship's fastenings), that was made there so early. My thought is that the first watercraft were glazed/glued/ghee'd basket-bowl coracles (from earlier "geodesic"-woven dome huts inverted from ancient ape-like bowl-nests) which were (in shallows) punted with poles and (in deep) pulled by paired dogs (high-tailed proto-Thai ridgebacks). This was made obsolete by linear boats (canoes etc.) and paddles/sails, but continued as sled/travois dog teams. (First dogs at Phu Quoc, were unafraid of humans, like dodos; later dogs were mixed with cold-weather wolves)
DeleteI made brief blogposts, see pictures: http://the-arc-ddeden.blogspot.com/2013/03/phu-quoc-island-bowl-boats-1st-dog.html
http://the-arc-ddeden.blogspot.com/2007/03/1.html
http://the-arc-ddeden.blogspot.com/2008/12/crescent.html
"Andy idea why? I can sometimes see how something or other undermines some part of his world view. Other times, he's inscrutable".
ReplyDeleteNo idea why. Except the first time I suggested that 'Y-DNA K', as it was known then, originated in Wallacea he was adamant it hadn't. He manintained that, like every other haplogroup, it had originated in South Asia. He has since been forced to accept that MNOPS probably originated at least somewhere more towards Wallacea than he was originally prepared to accept.
"I really cannot understand why the southern route is so very important to him".
Yes. He seems to have a strong emotional attachment to the idea.
"Not sure why Maju would think that such a great leap".
He is very committed to the belief that 'modern humans' were some suddenly superior species that through that superiority was able to replace all previous human species. So I suppose that belief extends to believing humans are completely different from the rest of nature. I, and I suspect you too, suspect that our evolution has been far more complicated than Maju's simplistic view.
"He manintained that, like every other haplogroup, it had originated in South Asia."
DeleteSouth or Southeast Asia?
Why, or under what circumstances, would MNOPS spread to the continent from Wallacea?
"He is very committed to the belief that 'modern humans' were some suddenly superior species that through that superiority was able to replace all previous human species."
For all of his socialist politics, and political correctness, Maju's world view is organized around dominance and violence. This seems to be part of why he's so emotionally invested in Marija Gimbutas. He is deeply committed to the idea of barbaric Indo-European hordes thundering off of the steppe, smashing and burning everything in their path, however anachronistic that image is.
Consequently, and somewhat humorously, he's a Marxist that rejects material determinism. In Maju's world, the Indo-Europeans expanded out of the Samara Valley and they did so solely out of blood lust and an ethno-cultural devotion to rapine. No other explanation is acceptable.
"I, and I suspect you too, suspect that our evolution has been far more complicated than Maju's simplistic view."
Indeed. All of the evidence before us suggests a very complicated scenario. The evidence from China alone demands it.
I, like a few others, also suspect that the story of Indo-European is similarly complex and not at all like the simplistic, branching tree with which we're usually presented.
"South or Southeast Asia?"
ReplyDeleteDefinitely South Asia from Maju's perspective. He even places mt-DNA N's origin in South Asia, specifically to the northeast of that region. He claims 'Bengal' even though basal N haplogroups are completely absent from that region.
"Why, or under what circumstances, would MNOPS spread to the continent from Wallacea?"
I would guess as a result of improved boating technology. I can think of no other reason at present. As for placing MNOPS in that region: both M and S are New Guinea/Melanesian haplogroups as basically are K1-P60, K2-P79 and even K3-P261 (Bali actually for the last). These three haplogroups are really included within MNOPS but the nomenclature system is unable to cope with that at present. And MNOPS* (usually listed simply as K*-M9) has been recorded commonly in Australia and Southern Wallacea and virtually nowhere else. To me that is fairly convincing evidence that MNOPS is a SE Asian haplogroup.
"I, like a few others, also suspect that the story of Indo-European is similarly complex and not at all like the simplistic, branching tree with which we're usually presented".
I would say that those who suspect that to be so are almost certainly correct. I am more familiar with the development of Austronesian languages, including Polynesian. This group is more straightforward because they expanded into previously uninhabited regions.
"Definitely South Asia from Maju's perspective."
DeleteLooking at Wikipedia, I suspect he's just parroting what he reads there.
"I would guess as a result of improved boating technology. I can think of no other reason at present."
Nor can I. However, that merely provides a mechanism of dispersal. It doesn't do much to explain why MNOPS would meet with such reproductive success on presumably an already populated continent.
The distributions you cite certainly point to Wallacea, or nearby, for a point of origin. Is it possible that this was some sort of refuge? As I recall, that was part of what Bucky Fuller suggested, that ice and aridity pushed us into the tropical seas and, when the weather improved, we followed the major river systems inland. It looks great on paper but I don't think he necessarily had much empirical observation to support the claim.
"It doesn't do much to explain why MNOPS would meet with such reproductive success on presumably an already populated continent".
ReplyDeleteI think the more efficient exploitation of resources would allow population expansion at the expense of indigenous haplogroups. Wherever we propose MNOPS to have expanded from we still have it becoming the majority haplogroup in other regions so the problem is not just confined to a SE Asian origin.
"Is it possible that this was some sort of refuge?"
Possible. I presume you're looking at a Toba refuge but we still see evidence of pre-MNOPS haplogroups through much of the world.
"ice and aridity pushed us into the tropical seas and, when the weather improved, we followed the major river systems inland. It looks great on paper but I don't think he necessarily had much empirical observation to support the claim".
Again the problem for the theory lies in the presence of haplogroups in what should have been uninhabited regions in such a scenario. I strongly suspect that the whole thing has been far more complicated than most are prepared to consider.
"Wherever we propose MNOPS to have expanded from we still have it becoming the majority haplogroup in other regions so the problem is not just confined to a SE Asian origin."
ReplyDeleteMany thanks for the response. Unfortunately, my understanding of genetics, and familiarity with where we stand today, is not sufficient to offer much intelligent discussion. I sometimes think it's because my first wife was a gene jockey. The mental block may take some effort to overcome.
I was mulling over the subject the other day and realised I may not have explained things very well. The spread of the haplogroups doesn't necessarily indicate huge population movement. Haplogroups, like other genes, are quite capable of moving reasonably independently through a population over the generations if they provide a selective advantage. My guess is that the spread of various technologies has carried various Y-DNA haplogroups with them as men passed the technology to their sons and nephews. Usually mt-DNAs have been carried along to some extent but Y-DNA outstrips the mt-DNA just as technology outstrips the Y-DNA. Needless to say Maju disagrees absolutely with this idea. It doesn't fit his elitist ideals.
ReplyDeleteConsequently the presence of haplogroups with their deeper origins in Wallacea does not mean that other genes have been carried as far. In fact it looks very much as though the European end of the expansion involved a very strong pre-existing northwest Indian component. Humans have almost always mixed with pre-existing populations as they have expanded, as we know from the various expansions backwards and forwards through Central Asia.